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Source for onboard preamp only?
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=3588		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Michael McBroom [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:10 am ]
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I have a prospective client who is interested in one of my 10-string classicals, but he wants a pickup installed and he wants a preamp with onboard controls. Problem I'm having is that all the systems I've found with the controls that mount into the upper bout use an under-the-saddle transducer, except the LR Baggs I-Beam. I'm leary of the I-Beam system because I think the transducer might be too heavy for a classical guitar. And I can't use under-the-saddle transducers with a 10-string saddle because they are not long enough.

I have installed the Schatten HFN-C pickup in an earlier 10-string build. Passive electronics, and it sounded great, even without a preamp. But a preamp did give more control capabilities.

So, I'm thinking that if I could locate a good onboard preamp only and wire the Schatten to it, this might be the best way to go -- in terms of keeping the client happy, at any rate.

Problem is, I haven't been able to find any preamps by themselves. Hence my question. Also, if any of you folks have installed an LR Baggs I-Beam system into a classical, I'd sure appreciate reading your impressions.

Best,

Michael

Best,

Michael
Author:  RussellR [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:22 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi Michael

Have a look at these from B Band, they have a system that doesn't use a Undersaddle pickup and you can get each part seperatly.

Shore Line - B BandRussellR38647.5994907407
Author:  BruceH [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:38 am ]
Post subject: 
Hey Michael,
You could also make your own under saddle pickup and make it any length you want. Check here.
I'd guess that if you can rephase a XS650, you can build one of these.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:15 pm ]
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Michael,

Another option! These pick-ups from K and K Sound allow you to spread the under saddle out. The microphone and on-board pre-amp are reported to give a very nice blend. I have recently become a distributor for this company and was quite impressed by their commitment to finding just what you need. THey want to be involved in the selction of each of thier products to ensure that you get just what you are hoping for. On Monday I am ordering two trinity's, one for a local musician and one for installation into the guitar I am currently building. I think I read David Bland say that both he and Tim McKnight also sell this brand.

Just more options!

Shane
Author:  Michael McBroom [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 1:29 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks for the tips, guys.

Bruce, that's a cool web page. But for my application, there are two limitations with this guy's construction and installation methods that will make it difficult for me to use. This is a classical, and having to locate the coax at an angle, plus drilling a 1/8" hole, are problematic. As for the rephased XS, that's still an ongoing project. One of these days. What, are you a member of the Yam650 list?

Russell, I've heard a lot of good things about B-Band -- thanks for the reminder. As for simplicity of installation, I like the B-Band A7 with the AST soundboard transducer.

Shane, I've heard good things about the K&K system too. However, I'd just rather not have to install all that stuff inside the guitar. I'm not a fan of pickups on a classical anyway . . .

Best,

Michael
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:13 am ]
Post subject: 
Michael,

Agreed about all that STUFF. A friend of mine ALWAYS talks his customers out of onboard pre-amps as he, and all of you!, spends a lot time and effort shaving off every ounce to get the instrument reponsive and balanced and just can't see adding all of that weight, and more, back on with an onboard pre-amp, complete with battery. So he ops for an external pre-amp and advises his customer that then the whole thing is cheaper as he then only isalls the pick-up and the customer can use the pre-amp for a number of different instruments. Anyway, K and K are pretty flexible so if you just want a pre-amp or one of their systems re-configured I can enquire if you like. I just hope you find what you are looking for!

Shane
Author:  Dave-SKG [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:34 am ]
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I like K & K. They sound Great...even their lowest price system is really good. I also agree with Shane about adding weight etc. Besides I believe the sound shouldn't be controlled at the guitar but by the soundman. You just can't really tell what you are doing to your sound adjusting it yourself on stage. Even in a small venue how does it sound in the back or behind the bar? I know some will politely disagree...well they are WRONG!
Author:  RussellR [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:08 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi Michael

I have used a few of the B Band pickups and I like the way the AST sounds over the UST, less electric in my opinion, of course my experiance is with steel strings not classicals.
Author:  JBreault [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:28 am ]
Post subject: 
An axternal preamp clipped to a belt is just as accessable as one installed on the guitar. Besides, playing a classical, you don't have to worry about belt buckle scratches the way you do with a steel string. I'm with Shane's friend, go external. (That is, of course, if you can conveince your client about this.)
Author:  rlabbe [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:36 am ]
Post subject: 
I like Rick Turner's advice on this subject - that in ten years the electronics are going to be obsolete, or perhaps even dead, and then you are stuck with a guitar with a big hole cut in the side with nothing that fits that form factor.
Author:  Mark Swanson [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:59 am ]
Post subject: 
I use and make the same type of undersaddle pickups that are shown on R.M. Mottolas' website. I build my own preamps as well, and put them in the guitar. These are just basic preamps that fit on the end pin jack.
Having all of that on-board EQ and so forth just adds weight, makes a mess and will be obsolete in a while...you'd alwas wish it wasn't there. But you should have a preamp inside, as close to the pickup as possible. Signal loss along the cable of a pickup is extreme, and you will have troubles if you have an external preamp. The preamp will amplify any and all noise before the preamp, and can make the cable itself microphonic, and buzzing will also pop up depending on the wiring in the room. Putting the preamp close to the pickup will elimiate that. If you want EQ and all of that, you can still use the external boxes, that works great.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mark,

To clarify! Pre-amp on the end pin, then EQ and any other effects outside. So no onboard controls, they remain outside the instrunment. Does the pre-amp require a battery on the guitar?

Shane
Author:  Rod True [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
Shane, the b-band A1 pre-amp is the end pin,

and here are the specs on it.

You do require a battery inside, I put it on the side of the head block. I'm sure some will put it on one of the sides somewhere, but my thinking is if it is on the headblock than there is no "block of bulk" on the side to possibly dampen vibration. Could be wrong here but that's my thinking.

PS. don't know anything about the K&K stuff, just have used the b-band on 4 guitars and I realy like them. I'm sure the other brands are comparable.Rod True38649.0496643518
Author:  Michael McBroom [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Guys,

I was strongly suggesting to my prospective client that we should go with a passive onboard transducer and an external preamp. I didn't think about the obsolete angle, but that is an excellent point. Anyway, as it works out, he has agreed with me, so it looks like I'll be going with an soundboard transducer and I'm going to leave it up to him as far as the sort of preamp he wants to get. He likes Fishman. I can't blame him; I own a Fishman preamp, and I think it does a good job.

I will probably install the Schatten Design HFN-C passive pickup. I've installed this on an earlier 10-string classical build of mine, and the owner is very happy with it.

Best,

Michael
Author:  Mark Swanson [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:16 am ]
Post subject: 
Rod makes good points, I agree with the battery placement. That is the spot that makes the most sense for me.
B-Band makes good stuff. But I was under the impression that you need to use their pickups with their preamps, because they are different than anything else that's made and the preamps are set up for that special type of pickup element. I could be wrong, though! It used to be that way when the company first started out. Mark Swanson38649.428587963
Author:  RussellR [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:50 am ]
Post subject: 
I think you are right Mark

You would have to use the B Band AST with the B Band Preamps.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:04 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Mark Swanson] Rod makes good points, I agree with the battery placement. That is the spot that makes the most sense for me.
B-Band makes good stuff. But I was under the impression that you need to use their pickups with their preamps, because they are different than anything else that's made and the preamps are set up for that special type of pickup element. I could be wrong, though! It used to be that way when the company first started out. [/QUOTE]

Nope, you're right. I asked them about using a B-Band pickup with an offboard pre, specifically my Baggs PADI (lovely little brown box), and I was told I'd still need the endpin pre. I could still use the PADI for tone-shaping, but the signal from the pickup wouldn't be enough.

Unless they've changed designs in the last 12 months, thems the facts.
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